Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 13:55:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Helena Kobrin Sender: Helena Kobrin Reply-To: Helena Kobrin Subject: Complaint on unauthorized use of copyrighted materials To: postmaster@cistron.nl Dear Postmaster, I represent Religious Technology Center ("RTC"), the owner of the confidential Advanced Technology of the religion of Scientology, and the holder of the exclusive rights under the copyrights applicable to the Advanced Technology materials. Among these copyrighted and confidential materials are the Advanced Technology materials of various levels known as "Operating Thetan" or "OT" levels. I have been informed that one of your users identified as Snorri Helgarsson ("newkid") has uploaded a file containing some of these copyrighted, unpublished materials, in your world wide web at http://www.cistron.nl/~newkid/info.html without the authorization of my client, who, of course, would not have given such authorization had it been requested. This action violates my client's legal rights in that it is the unauthorized making of an electronic copy of the copyrighted material and the unauthorized disclosure of trade secrets materials. This posting constitutes a violation of the United States Copyright laws entitling my client to damages and injunction. We have been informed by our Dutch colleagues the posting also constitutes a violation of Dutch law. Therefore we request that you remove these materials from your site and confirm that this has been done. You should also be informed that my client has filed three separate lawsuits which are currently being litigated in the United States on individual infringers. Two of these suits include the access providers who have allowed their systems to be used as a means for unlawful wide distribution of copyrighted and trade secret materials. If you are unwilling to remove these materials, please provide your mailing address and telefacsimile (fax) number so I can follow up this notification with a letter. I also request that you provide the mailing address for the poster, so we can also notify him of his violation of law. My client is prepared to take all necessary legal actions to protect its rights on these materials. We would however, much prefer to resolve this matter with you amicably if you are willing to do so. Very truly yours, Helena K. Kobrin ---------- Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 01:14:12 +0200 From: Edvard Tuinder To: dth@cistron.nl Subject: Re: Complaint on unauthorized use of copyrighted materials Hi, Helena Kobrin wrote: > > Dear Postmaster, > [your message deleted] Thanks for your message. We have reviewed both your request and the material contained in the afore mentioned WWW page. Before any reaction to your message I would like to note that any user on the Internet can claim to be a legal representative for any one. Therefore I would like to urge you to provide us with the *written* confirmation from RTC that you are indeed an entitled representative for RTC. Otherwise we will not take any action whatsoever. Furthermore I am sorry to inform you, that based on the information you have provided to us, we are not able to determine whether our user (using the mentioned `newkid' account) is indeed violating copyrights hold by RTC. If you can provide us with enough information to convince us that the information contained in the WWW pages are indeed an infriction to copyrights hold by RTC, we are willing to review your message again. This however does not imply that *we* will remove the information in the WWW page. As you may or may not know, there are several dutch laws prohibiting us from doing this. One of these is, that we as system operators are not allowed to view, edit or remove those materials stored in the private directories of our users. And even though the material in the WWW page is publically accessable, it is still material stored in the private directory of this user. If `newkid' is indeed violating copyrights hold by RTC, we are willing to inform him of this matter and of any legal consequences it may have for him if he does not remove the information. I would like to note though, that we as Internet Service Provider are in no way responsible for any material posted, made publicly accessible or quoted by our users in any way. Our users are (as any person on this world) bound to any copyright by any one. We as ISP can be compared to telephone companies, we can in no way accept any responsibility for the information provide through our network. I would suggest that you take up this matter with `newkid' yourself, there really is nothing much that we can (legally) do for you. I am however not allowed (legally) to provide you with the mailing address of our user `newkid'. This is secret information, of which we (as system operators) are not allowed to provide it to any one requesting it. Our postal address and fax number are available through several sources on the Internet, so the need to provide you with this information seems futile to me. Sincerely yours, Ed -- Edvard Tuinder Cistron Internet Services --------------- Date: Sat, 23 Sep 1995 13:27:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Helena Kobrin Subject: Re: Complaint on unauthorized use of copyrighted materials To: Edvard Tuinder cc: postmaster@cistron.nl, hkk@netcom.com Dear Ed, Thank you for your response. While I suppose it is true that any Internet user can claim to be a legal representative for anyone else, you have no reason to believe that I am not a legal representative for RTC. In fact, there are legal papers posted on various Web sites which contain my name as RTC's attorney, so this request for written confirmation that I represent RTC is a foolish game which sidesteps the real issue. Furthermore, it is absurd that you ask for written (by which I assume you mean hard copy) information from me, but then refuse to provide your fax number and postal address. I do not know what information you feel you need on these copyrights to take some action on this situation. I can furnish you with the copyright registration numbers which cover these materials: OT I Txu 690-894, 303382 OT II Txu 303388 OT III Txu 2904966 OT IV Txu 690893, 690901, 690902 OT V Txu 690899, 690903 OT VI Txu 690906 OT VII Txu 690889, 690890, 690891, 690892, 690894, 690895, 698898 Your position on removing material from a publicly accessible Web page does not match my understanding of the law or the other practice in which various access providers engage, both in Holland and elsewhere. Other Dutch access providers have taken action to remove these same materials from Web sites. Your position on the responsibility of ISPs for materials posted is one that I have heard before. I do not agree that it is supportable under the law, and there are currently lawsuits filed againtst access providers in the U.S. where aceess providers have been held liable for what was posted on their sites. In addition, many ISPs have voluntarily provided assistance in removing copyrighted material. I am not suggesting that you have responsibility for everything posted to your site or that you should monitor it all. What I am saying is thath, having been notified of a problem, you have a responsibility to take action on the complaint to warn the customer, and if the customer will not remove the infringement, then you, as his source of access, have a responsibility to take action to remove the infringement yourself. I hope that we can rapidly resolve this matter through our e-mail communication, so that I am not forced to refer this to our Dutch attorneys. I will do so, however, if necessary. Sincerely, Helena Kobrin ---------------- From: ed@white.patriot.nl Date: Mon Sep 25 07:23:12 1995 To: hkk@netcom.com (Helena Kobrin) Hi, You wrote: > > Dear Ed, > > Thank you for your response. > > While I suppose it is true that any Internet user can claim to be > a legal representative for anyone else, you have no reason to believe that > I am not a legal representative for RTC. In fact, there are legal papers > posted on various Web sites which contain my name as RTC's attorney, so > this request for written confirmation that I represent RTC is a foolish > game which sidesteps the real issue. As you are well aware, there is currently a lot of fuss on the Internet about the Scientology Church. There are many people opposing against it, while others are big advocates for it. Considering this climate I can not simply accept anyones claim to be anyones legal reprensatative and thus forcing me to make a choice for either side. In this situation I (as a sysop) have to be neutral and make my decision based on solid proof. As you probably know as well, E-Mail is one of those Internet facilities that be spoofed most easily. Therefore I have to be carefull what to accept and what not. As you can deduct from the fact that I am indeed responding to your message, I apparentely accept your claim. However to protect myself and my business I need the written confirmation just in case our customers decides to sue us for removing his property from our systems (if we were to do that). > Furthermore, it is absurd that you > ask for written (by which I assume you mean hard copy) information from > me, but then refuse to provide your fax number and postal address. You have been able to find the documents you whish me to remove on our web server, but you can't find our address, which is on the very same web server. But to answer your question, yes I request a hard copy confirmation. As a side note, you're playing the same game now too. You tell me your name is mentioned in several `legal papers posted on various Web sites', but fail to give any URL which would make it possible for me to check this. > I do not know what information you feel you need on these > copyrights to take some action on this situation. I can furnish you with > the copyright registration numbers which cover these materials: > > OT I Txu 690-894, 303382 > OT II Txu 303388 > OT III Txu 2904966 > OT IV Txu 690893, 690901, 690902 > OT V Txu 690899, 690903 > OT VI Txu 690906 > OT VII Txu 690889, 690890, 690891, 690892, > 690894, 690895, 698898 I get the scary feeling you are talking about something different than the material contained in the WWW page. Correct me if I am wrong, but the web page consists of a court transcription. I have little knowledge of copyright law, but it is my understanding that those documents reviewed during court sessions are not copyrighted unless the court declares it to be so. > Your position on removing material from a publicly accessible Web > page does not match my understanding of the law or the other practice in > which various access providers engage, both in Holland and elsewhere. > Other Dutch access providers have taken action to remove these same > materials from Web sites. After consultation with several other ISPs in The Netherlands I find this very hard to believe. Furthermore it is of no concern to me whatever other ISPs do. I have to do my work according to our own rules and the Dutch laws. > Your position on the responsibility of ISPs for materials posted > is one that I have heard before. I do not agree that it is supportable > under the law, and there are currently lawsuits filed againtst access > providers in the U.S. where aceess providers have been held liable for > what was posted on their sites. In addition, many ISPs have voluntarily > provided assistance in removing copyrighted material. > > I am not suggesting that you have responsibility for everything > posted to your site or that you should monitor it all. What I am saying is > thath, having been notified of a problem, you have a responsibility to > take action on the complaint to warn the customer, and if the customer > will not remove the infringement, then you, as his source of access, have > a responsibility to take action to remove the infringement yourself. It is impossible to interfere in peoples digital property, without a court order, or without the explicit consent of the user involved. Any ISP in The Netherlands will have considerable trouble executing your request. > I hope that we can rapidly resolve this matter through our e-mail > communication, so that I am not forced to refer this to our Dutch > attorneys. I will do so, however, if necessary. I am in no mood to be impressed by this. I am willing to continue this conversation in an open minded way without threats from either side. Please refrain from these tactics in future communications. > Sincerely, > Helena Kobrin Sincerely yours, Ed -- Edvard Tuinder Cistron Internet Services